Leaving Syria is ‘knife in the back’ for Kurdish forces, Panetta says
2019-10-07 00:00:00


For a deeper look at what this all means,we turn to Leon Panetta.(1)
要深入了解这一切意味着什么,我们转向莱昂·帕内塔(Leon Panetta)。

He served as the director of the CIA and thensecretary of defense during the Obama administration.(2)
在奥巴马政府任职期间,他曾担任中央情报局局长,然后是国防部长。

And Steve Simon, he served as senior directorfor Middle Eastern and North African affairs(3)
史蒂夫·西蒙(Steve Simon)曾担任中东和北非事务高级总监

on the National Security Council staff duringthe Obama administration.(4)
奥巴马政府时期的国家安全委员会工作人员。

He's now professor of international relationsat Colby College.(5)
他现在是科尔比学院国际关系教授。

Gentlemen, welcome to you both.(6)
先生们,欢迎你们俩。

Secretary Panetta, I'd like to begin withyou, if you don't mind.(7)
Panetta秘书,如果您不介意,我想从您开始。

How big a change in U.S. policy is this latestmove?(8)
美国最近的政策变化有多大?

LEON PANETTA, Former U.S. Secretary of Defense:Well, I think this is a serious foreign policy(9)
美国前国防部长莱昂·帕内塔:我认为这是一项严肃的外交政策

blunder that is going to undermine UnitedStates' leadership and further weaken our(10)
这将破坏美国的领导地位并进一步削弱我们的实力

role in the world.(11)
在世界上的角色。

I mean, we're putting a knife in the backof the Kurds who basically fought alongside(12)
我的意思是,我们在库尔德人的后面放了一把刀,他们基本上是和

of us in trying to destroy the ISIS caliphate.(13)
我们试图破坏ISIS哈里发。

And, in basically leaving the Kurds vulnerable,we have also opened up the possibility that(14)
而且,在基本上使库尔德人容易受到伤害的情况下,我们还提出了以下可能性:

Syria will go into the hands of Russia, Iran,and that ISIS will further strengthen itself.(15)
叙利亚将交由俄罗斯,伊朗控制,ISIS将进一步加强自身。

So, from every aspect, I consider this tobe a very serious blunder on the part of the(16)
因此,从各个方面来看,我认为这是一个非常严重的错误

president.(17)
主席。

AMNA NAWAZ: Steve Simon, you have long arguedthat this was a long time coming, that the(18)
AMNA NAWAZ:史蒂夫·西蒙(Steve Simon),您长期以来一直在争论,这是很长一段时间,

alliance with those Syrian -- or the Kurdish,rather, forces there had a very short shelf(19)
与那些叙利亚人(或库尔德人,更确切地说,在那里的部队)结盟

life, this was inevitable in some ways.(20)
生活中,这在某些方面是不可避免的。

Do you agree with this decision to withdrawU.S. forces?(21)
您是否同意撤军的决定?

STEVE SIMON, Former National Security CouncilOfficial: Well, I think it was the right decision,(22)
国家安全委员会前官员史蒂夫·西蒙(STEVE SIMON):恩,我认为这是正确的决定,

but it was really not well-prepared, as SecretaryPanetta points out, I think quite eloquently.(23)
但正如潘内塔秘书指出的那样,我的确雄辩地很好,没有做好充分的准备。

It was known certainly since last winter thatthis was the president's inclination, and(24)
自去年冬天以来,人们肯定知道这是总统的意愿,

he was determined to do it.(25)
他决心这样做。

He was talked out of it at the time.(26)
当时他已被淘汰。

But in the interval between the president'saborted decision last November and the decision(27)
但是在总统去年11月中止决定与决定之间的间隔中

he's made just today, nothing was done toprepare the ground for the withdrawal.(28)
他是今天才做的,没有做任何准备为撤军做准备。

And this, to me, is just -- I guess it's astounding,because there were options that the United(29)
对我来说,这只是-我认为这是惊人的,因为曼联有很多选择

States could have pursued that would havereassured Turkey in a way that removed its(30)
各国本可以追求的是,​​这将使土耳其放心,

incentive to invade Syria under conditionsthat we're looking at now.(31)
在我们目前所关注的条件下入侵叙利亚的动机。

But none of those steps were really taken.(32)
但是这些步骤都没有真正采取。

And they weren't taken because there was aview on the part of the administration that(33)
他们之所以没有被采纳,是因为政府部门有一种观点

it would entail talking to the regime in Damascus.(34)
这将需要与大马士革政权进行对话。

And this was something that the United Statesdidn't want to do.(35)
这是美国不想做的事情。

Now, you know, on one level, that's understandable.(36)
现在,您知道,从某种程度上讲,这是可以理解的。

The regime in Damascus is repugnant.(37)
大马士革的政权令人反感。

But if the Turks are going to be assured orreassured that the PKK won't be a security(38)
但是,如果土耳其人将得到放心或放心,库尔德工人党将不会成为担保

problem for them, then, really, the only wayto accomplish that is for these areas of Syria(39)
那么,对他们来说,问题是,实现这一目标的唯一方法就是在叙利亚的这些地区

that are now administered by the Kurds arereinstated into the Syrian state.(40)
现在由库尔德人管理的军队恢复为叙利亚国家。

AMNA NAWAZ: Steve Simon, do I take that tomean that you...(41)
AMNA NAWAZ:史蒂夫·西蒙,我是说你吗?

STEVE SIMON: I think that would be OK forthe Turks.(42)
史蒂夫·西蒙(STEVE SIMON):我认为这对土耳其人来说是可以的。

AMNA NAWAZ: Should I take this to mean thatyou disagree with the president's decision?(43)
AMNA NAWAZ:我是否应该说这表示您不同意总统的决定?

STEVE SIMON: As I said, the president's decisionis perfectly legitimate, I think.(44)
史蒂夫·西蒙(STEVE SIMON):正如我所说,我认为总统的决定是完全合理的。

It makes a lot of sense.(45)
这很有道理。

But the ground hasn't been prepared for that-- for that movement.(46)
但是还没有为此做准备-为那运动。

And it could have been.(47)
它本来可以。

And it wasn't because the parties that areinvolved didn't use the time available to(48)
并不是因为参与的各方没有利用可利用的时间

them, between the president's decision lastNovember to withdraw and now.(49)
他们,从总统去年11月决定撤军到现在。

And that's deeply regrettable.(50)
这令人深感遗憾。

So the question that we face is how best toimplement President Trump's decision in ways(51)
因此,我们面临的问题是,如何以最佳方式实施特朗普总统的决定

that don't lead to serious disorder, civicdisorder, in the areas of Syria that are administered(52)
在叙利亚管理的地区不会导致严重的疾病,公民疾病

by the Kurds and their Arab allies.(53)
由库尔德人及其阿拉伯盟友提供。

It's a very large area.(54)
这是一个很大的区域。

And, as your report pointed out, it...(55)
而且,正如您的报告指出的那样,它...

(CROSSTALK) ..
AMNA NAWAZ: Allow me to put that to SecretaryPanetta there.(56)
阿玛·纳瓦兹:请允许我把那交给帕内塔秘书。

STEVE SIMON: Sorry.(57)
史蒂夫·西蒙:对不起。

AMNA NAWAZ: Is there a good way to implementthis decision?(58)
AMNA NAWAZ:有执行此决定的好方法吗?

Is there a way to do this in a way that youthink doesn't lead to a potential resurgence(59)
有没有办法以您认为不会导致潜在复兴的方式进行

of ISIS forces or doesn't put our Kurdishallies on the ground at risk?(60)
是ISIS部队的一部分,还是不会使我们的库尔德盟友身处险境?

LEON PANETTA: Well, there's no way to do it,when you basically give up the only leverage(61)
LEON PANETTA:嗯,当您基本上放弃唯一的杠杆作用时,是没有办法做到的

you have, which is the presence of U.S. troopsin that region.(62)
您拥有的就是美军在该地区的存在。

That's why the president reversed himselfwhen he first made this decision back in December,(63)
这就是为什么当总统在12月份首次做出此决定时,他将自己推翻了,

and he retained our forces there.(64)
他把我们的部队留在那里。

If our forces are there, then we can negotiatewith Turkey, we can negotiate with Syria,(65)
如果我们的部队在那里,那么我们可以与土耳其进行谈判,我们可以与叙利亚进行谈判,

we can negotiate with others in terms of howthis transition ought to take place.(66)
我们可以就如何过渡过渡与他人进行谈判。

But once you immediately pull out U.S. forceswithout that preparation, you're essentially(67)
但是,一旦您在没有那种准备的情况下立即撤出美军,基本上就是

saying you're on your own, and Turkey is givenan invitation to basically invade Syria.(68)
说您自己一个人,土耳其就受到了邀请,基本上入侵了叙利亚。

Those are consequences that are going to hurtour credibility, the United States' credibility,(69)
这些后果将损害我们的信誉,美国的信誉,

with allies.(70)
与盟友。

We depend on allies.(71)
我们依靠盟友。

We depended on the Kurds to help us destroythe caliphate.(72)
我们依靠库尔德人帮助我们摧毁哈里发。

To suddenly leave Syria and say to the Kurds,you're on your own, sends a signal to other(73)
突然离开叙利亚对库尔德人说,你一个人,向其他人发出信号

allies not to trust the United States.(74)
盟国不信任美国。

AMNA NAWAZ: Steve Simon, does this hurt ourcredibility with other allies?(75)
AMNA NAWAZ:Steve Simon,这是否损害了我们在其他盟友中的信誉?

Who would trust us after this reversal?(76)
逆转之后谁会相信我们?

STEVE SIMON: I think allies are constantlyevaluating the reliability of U.S. commitments.(77)
史蒂夫·西蒙(STEVE SIMON):我认为盟国正在不断评估美国承诺的可靠性。

In this case, I think what gets lost is thefact that the Kurds had their own reasons(78)
在这种情况下,我认为迷失的是库尔德人有自己的理由

for joining us in this anti-ISIS operation.(79)
加入我们参与这项反ISIS行动。

They were acting in their interests.(80)
他们为自己的利益行事。

And one of those interests was the hope ofU.S. support for some kind of autonomous arrangement(81)
这些利益之一就是希望美国支持某种自主安排

for the Kurds within Syria along the linesthat the U.S. had secured for the Kurds in(82)
沿美国在叙利亚为库尔德人争取的路线

Iraq.(83)
伊拉克。

So the Kurds were playing their own game here.(84)
因此,库尔德人在这里玩自己的游戏。

They were pursuing their own interests.(85)
他们追求自己的利益。

This was not an act of altruism on the partof the Kurds.(86)
这不是库尔德人的无私行为。

At this point, the U.S. and Kurdish interestsare diverging.(87)
在这一点上,美国和库尔德人的利益分歧很大。

So you're seeing a weakening of the alliancethat Secretary Panetta has referred to as(88)
因此,您看到Panetta秘书所指的同盟关系正在减弱

a stab in the back, but it's diverging interests,and they can't be helped right now.(89)
背后有刺,但利益分歧很大,目前无法解决。

Turkey is a NATO ally of the United States.(90)
土耳其是美国的北约盟友。

AMNA NAWAZ: Steve Simon, very quickly, letme ask, do you believe that U.S. withdrawal(91)
AMNA NAWAZ:史蒂夫·西蒙,很快,请允许我问,您是否认为美国撤军

from this area could lead to a resurgenceof the ISIS threat?(92)
从这个地区可能会导致ISIS威胁重燃?

STEVE SIMON: Well, I think, if the Kurds aregiven a choice of fighting the Turks or fighting(93)
史蒂夫·西蒙(STEVE SIMON):我认为,如果让库尔德人选择与土耳其人作战还是

ISIS, they're going to turn on the Turks.(94)
ISIS,他们将打开土耳其人。

They're going to defend themselves againstthe stronger enemy and the more lethal one.(95)
他们将为更强大的敌人和更致命的敌人保卫自己。

And that, in effect, is going to damage fightagainst ISIS, because, even though the United(96)
实际上,这将损害针对ISIS的战斗,因为即使

States has been a keystone in the effort tocombat the Islamic State, the fighting and(97)
国家一直是打击伊斯兰国,

dying has been done by others, including theKurds.(98)
包括库尔德人在内的其他人已经死了。

So they're going to be distracted.(99)
所以他们会分心。

They don't have the strength to fight a two-frontwar.(100)
他们没有力量进行两线作战。

AMNA NAWAZ: Secretary Panetta, what aboutyou?(101)
AMNA NAWAZ:Panetta秘书,您呢?

LEON PANETTA: Well, there's no question thatthis is going to give ISIS the opportunity(102)
莱昂·帕内塔:毫无疑问,这将为ISIS提供机会

to regroup.(103)
重新组合。

There are tens of thousands of terroriststhat are in camps that the Kurds have overseen.(104)
在库尔德人监督下的营地中,有成千上万的恐怖分子。

They are now going to turn their attentionto dealing with the Turks, which means that(105)
他们现在将注意力转向与土耳其人打交道,这意味着

those terrorists are going to become partof the ISIS effort.(106)
这些恐怖分子将成为ISIS努力的一部分。

So there is no question that what the presidentdid is going to basically give ISIS additional(107)
因此,毫无疑问,总统所做的将基本上为ISIS提供额外的支持

ability to reorganize and then threaten theUnited States.(108)
重组然后威胁美国的能力。

It's a terrible mistake.(109)
这是一个可怕的错误。

AMNA NAWAZ: Steve Simon, if those fightersare released or do escape, thousands of them(110)
AMNA NAWAZ:Steve Simon,如果这些战士被释放或逃脱,成千上万

in detention right now watched over by theKurdish forces, what's your reaction to that?(111)
现在被库尔德部队监视的拘留中,您对此有何反应?

What happens then?(112)
那会发生什么呢?

STEVE SIMON: Well, first of all, it's hardfor me to believe that these ISIS fighters(113)
史蒂夫·西蒙(STEVE SIMON):首先,我很难相信这些ISIS战士

that we're talking about are going to makeit to the United States and attack the United(114)
我们正在谈论的将要到达美国并攻击美国

States in our own homeland or really havethe assets, the resources, the planning, skill,(115)
我们祖国的国家或实际上拥有资产,资源,计划,技能,

and so forth to seriously damage the UnitedStates' interests in the Middle East.(116)
以此类推严重损害美国在中东的利益。

So it's -- I'm not a big fan of ISIS, mindyou, but their ability to threaten U.S. interests,(117)
所以,请注意,我不是ISIS的忠实拥护者,但他们有威胁美国利益的能力,

I think, is really rather limited.(118)
我认为确实很有限。

So, the question is...(119)
所以,问题是...

AMNA NAWAZ: Do you still -- do they pose athreat to our NATO allies, to our European(120)
AMNA NAWAZ:您是否仍对我们的北约盟友和我们的欧洲人构成威胁?

allies?(121)
盟国?

STEVE SIMON: Yes, I would say of a limitednature.(122)
史蒂夫·西蒙:是的,我想说的是有限的。

But our NATO allies have considerable resourcesto deal with this threat.(123)
但是我们的北约盟国拥有大量资源来应对这一威胁。

And, mind you, the ISIS fighters we're talkingabout have to get to Europe to do this.(124)
而且,请注意,我们正在谈论的ISIS战斗机必须前往欧洲才能做到这一点。

To the extent that ISIS is an ideology that'sextremely anti-Western, well, there's no question(125)
在某种程度上,ISIS是一种极度反西方的意识形态,这是毫无疑问的

about that.(126)
关于那个。

But the ideology doesn't travel just in bodies.(127)
但是,意识形态不仅在身体上传播。

The ideology travels on the Internet and throughother channels to influence opinion of Muslim(128)
意识形态通过互联网和其他渠道传播,以影响穆斯林的观点。

populations in a lot of places, includingEurope.(129)
许多地方(包括欧洲)的人口。

The fate of these ISIS fighters in Syria,where they are still beleaguered, even if(130)
这些ISIS战斗机在叙利亚的命运,即使在叙利亚,他们仍然受到困扰

the Kurds are distracted, is not going tobe a major factor in European or United States(131)
库尔德人分心,不会成为欧洲或美国的主要因素

security.(132)
安全。

It will be a major factor for people who livein areas in which ISIS succeeds in reestablishing(133)
对于居住在ISIS成功重建地区的人们来说,这将是一个重要因素

control in rural areas of Syria.(134)
控制叙利亚农村地区。

That's true.(135)
确实如此。

But the effect on the United States interests,I think, is really, you know, difficult to(136)
但是,我认为,对美国利益的影响确实很难

identify.(137)
确定。

I think the key task right now is findingways to reassure the Turks, get them calmed(138)
我认为目前的关键任务是找到让土耳其人放心,让他们平静的方法

down, that the Kurds on the Syrian side ofthe border will not threaten their security.(139)
下来,边界叙利亚一侧的库尔德人不会威胁到他们的安全。

And I don't think that that can be done unlessthe Syrian regime, as well as the Russians,(140)
我认为除非叙利亚政权以及俄罗斯人能够做到,

are brought into the equation.(141)
被带入方程式。

AMNA NAWAZ: Secretary Panetta, I see you shakingyour head.(142)
AMNA NAWAZ:Panetta秘书,我看到你在摇头。

Very briefly, would you like to respond?(143)
很简短,您想回应吗?

LEON PANETTA: Yes.(144)
LEON PANETTA:是的。

With great respect, that's a very naive approach,to assume that somehow ISIS will never be(145)
怀着崇高的敬意,这是一种非常幼稚的方法,假设ISIS永远不会

able to reorganize and conduct the kind ofattacks that we have seen them conduct in(146)
能够重组并进行我们看到的攻击类型

the past.(147)
过去。

We have learned that from Al-Qaida.(148)
我们是从基地组织那里学到的。

We learned from the fact that, when we leftIraq, what happened was, ISIS reorganized(149)
我们从一个事实中学到,当我们离开伊拉克时,发生的是ISIS的重组

itself and then created a caliphate betweenSyria and Iraq that then represented a national(150)
本身,然后在叙利亚和伊拉克之间创造了哈里发,代表了一个国家

security threat to the United States.(151)
对美国的安全威胁。

I don't think we ought to assume that somehowISIS is not going to be intent on their principal(152)
我认为我们不应该以某种方式假定ISIS不会针对他们的原则

goal, which is to attack the United States.(153)
目标,那就是进攻美国。

That remains a threat.(154)
那仍然是一个威胁。

AMNA NAWAZ: And, gentlemen, we will have toleave it there.(155)
AMNA NAWAZ:先生们,我们将不得不把它留在那里。

Thank you very much for your time.(156)
非常感谢您的宝贵时间。

That's former Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta,former member of the National Security Council(157)
那是前国防部长莱昂·潘内塔,国家安全委员会前成员

under the Obama administration Steve Simon.(158)
在奥巴马政府史蒂夫·西蒙(Steve Simon)的领导下。

Thank you.(159)
谢谢。


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