Doris Kearns Goodwin on what today’s leaders can learn from past ‘turbulent times’
2018-10-09 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: On our Bookshelf tonight, presidentialhistorian and author Doris Kearns Goodwin(1)
JUDY WOODRUFF:今晚在我们的书架上,总统历史学家和作家Doris Kearns Goodwin

on "Leadership in Turbulent Times."(2)
关于“动荡时期的领导力”。

I sat down with her recently and begin ourconversation by asking how she came up with(3)
我最近和她坐下来开始谈话,问她是怎么想出来的

the idea for this, her eight book.(4)
这个想法,她的八本书。

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, Author, "Leadershipin Turbulent Times": When I began it five(5)
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN,作者,“动荡时代的领导力”:当我开始它五

years ago, there was a feeling that Washingtonwas broken, that bipartisanship had been lost.(6)
几年前,人们感到华盛顿被打破了,两党合作已经失败。

And I decided I wanted to look back at otherpresidents, my guys especially -- I call them(7)
我决定回顾其他总统,特别是我的家伙 - 我打电话给他们

that because I have lived with them for solong -- when they had gotten through more(8)
因为我和他们住了这么久 - 当他们经历了更多

challenging times even than ours, and yetsomehow were able to pull the citizens, and(9)
甚至比我们的挑战时期,但不知何故能够拉动公民,并且

the leaders bond together to make the countrybetter.(10)
领导人联合起来,使国家变得更好。

And then it got even more turbulent as timewent on.(11)
随着时间的推移,它变得更加动荡。

JUDY WOODRUFF: One of the first things I noticewhen I look at the book, on the back cover,(12)
JUDY WOODRUFF:当我看到这本书的封底时,我注意到的第一件事就是

you have positive comments -- they call themblurbs -- from Warren Buffett and Jim Collins,(13)
沃伦巴菲特和吉姆柯林斯,你有​​积极的评论 - 他们称之为模糊 -

who's known for the book "Good to Great."(14)
谁以“从优秀到卓越”这本书而闻名。

These are business people.(15)
这些是商界人士。

Does that tell us this is a different kindof history book?(16)
这告诉我们这是一本不同的历史书吗?

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: At one point, I wasspeaking to a lot of business groups over(17)
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:有一次,我和许多商业团体进行了交谈

these last couple decades, but also to collegesand universities.(18)
这几十年,也是高校。

And a kid raised his hand and he said, howcan I ever become one of these guys?(19)
一个孩子举起手,他说,我怎么能成为这些家伙之一?

They're on Mount Rushmore.(20)
他们在拉什莫尔山上。

It's too hard to become them.(21)
成为他们太难了。

So I thought, what if I write about them whenthey first start to run for office, when they're(22)
所以我想,如果我们在他们第一次开始竞选公职时写下这些信息,那么他们会怎样

23 and 25 and 28, and when they're still unformed,and when they're going to make mistakes, and(23)
23和25和28,当他们仍然未成形,并且他们将犯错误时,和

when they're going to screw up things?(24)
他们什么时候搞砸东西?

Then maybe young people can aspire to be leaders.(25)
那么也许年轻人可以立志成为领导者。

I would just love it if more people in thiscountry went into public life, went into leadership(26)
如果这个国家的更多人进入公共生活,进入领导层,我会喜欢它

positions, because that's what we need rightnow.(27)
职位,因为这就是我们现在所需要的。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, of course, the four youchoose to focus on, it's Abraham Lincoln,(28)
JUDY WOODRUFF:当然,你选择关注的四个,就是亚伯拉罕林肯,

Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, and LyndonJohnson.(29)
泰迪罗斯福,富兰克林罗斯福和林登约翰逊。

You used the term screwing up.(30)
你使用了搞砸的术语。

And you do focus in a book on the problemsthey faced early in their lives.(31)
而且你专注于一本关于他们生命早期面临的问题的书。

Why was that important?(32)
为什么这么重要?

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: People who've been throughdifficult times in their lives, through adversities,(33)
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:通过逆境经历过生活困难时期的人们

and come through with resilience, there isa strength and a wisdom.(34)
有韧性,有力量和智慧。

They have learned from their mistakes.(35)
他们从错误中吸取了教训。

They have learned from what fate might dealthem.(36)
他们从命运可以解决的问题中吸取了教训。

I mean, Lincoln had a near suicidal depressionwhen he felt like he had broken his word to(37)
我的意思是,林肯有一种近乎自杀的抑郁症,当时他觉得自己已经说完了

his constituencies, broken his promise toMary that he would get married to her.(38)
他的选区,违背了他对玛丽的承诺,他将与她结婚。

And they had to take all knives and razorsand scissors from his room.(39)
他们不得不从他的房间拿走所有的刀,剃刀和剪刀。

But he comes out of that by saying, "I wouldjust as soon die now, but I have not yet accomplished(40)
但是他说,“我现在很快就会死,但我还没有完成

anything to make any human being rememberthat I have lived," incredibly, right?(41)
什么东西让任何人都记住我曾经生活过,“令人难以置信,对吧?

Teddy Roosevelt loses his wife and his motheron the same day in the same house.(42)
泰迪罗斯福同一天在同一所房子里失去了他的妻子和母亲。

He goes to the Badlands.(43)
他去了荒地。

He rides his horse 15 hours a day.(44)
他每天骑马15个小时。

But by being in the West, he absorbs thislove of nature, and he becomes a Westerner,(45)
但是,通过在西方,他吸收了对大自然的热爱,他成了西方人,

as well as an Easterner.(46)
以及一个东方人。

FDR, of course, has his polio.(47)
当然,罗斯福有他的小儿麻痹症。

And when he took up that rehab center in WarmSprings, and he was Doc Roosevelt to his fellow(48)
当他在温泉中占据康复中心时,他就是罗斯福医生

polio patients, he taught them how to liveagain, a life of joy, even if they were paralyzed.(49)
脊髓灰质炎患者,他告诉他们如何再次生活,即使他们瘫痪也是一种快乐的生活。

It's exactly what he was able to do with thecountry when the country is paralyzed.(50)
正是在这个国家陷入瘫痪时,他才能与国家做些什么。

LBJ has a massive heart attack when he's onthe top of the heap as majority leader, but(51)
当他作为多数领导者时,LBJ有一次大规模的心脏病发作,但是

he says, what if I died now?(52)
他说,如果我现在死了怎么办?

What would I be remembered for?(53)
我会记得什么?

And then he goes right for civil rights inthe Senate, goes right for civil rights in(54)
然后,他在参议院争取公民权利,在公民权利方面是正确的

the presidency.(55)
总统。

So something happens, I think, when you gothrough a hard time.(56)
所以,当你经历一段艰难时期时,事情发生了。

You come through it with resilience, a reallyimportant quality.(57)
你可以通过弹性来获得它,这是一种非常重要的品质。

It doesn't have to be as harrowing as theseguys had.(58)
它不一定像这些家伙那样痛苦。

But it has to be something.(59)
但它必须是某种东西。

JUDY WOODRUFF: You describe the adversity,but is there some secret sauce, some magic(60)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你描述了逆境,但是有一些秘密的调味品,有些神奇

formula that we should learn from what theywent through?(61)
我们应该从他们经历的事情中学到什么公式?

Because that's what some people look at this,and they say, I want to know, what is -- what's(62)
因为这是有些人对此的看法,他们说,我想知道,什么是 - 什么是

the magic formula?(63)
神奇的公式?

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: There's no magic trick.(64)
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:没有魔术。

In fact, there's no clear trajectory for anyof them to reach the top of the presidency.(65)
事实上,他们中任何一个人都没有明确的轨迹可以达到总统职位的顶峰。

There's a family resemblance of traits, Iwould argue.(66)
我认为,这与家族有相似之处。

I think humility is one of them.(67)
我认为谦卑就是其中之一。

Empathy.(68)
同情。

If you can develop empathy, even if you'renot born with it, is another one.(69)
如果你能够表现出同理心,即使你不是天生的,也是另一个。

Resilience, as we have just been talking about.(70)
弹性,正如我们刚刚谈到的那样。

Self-reflection, being able to acknowledgeerrors.(71)
自我反省,能够承认错误。

Build a team that you can share credit andyou can shoulder blame if something goes wrong.(72)
建立一个可以分享信用的团队,如果出现问题你可以承担责任。

Learning how to communicate with people.(73)
学习如何与人沟通。

But, most important, at some point, ambitionfor the self became ambition for something(74)
但是,最重要的是,在某种程度上,对自我的抱负成了某种东西的野心

larger.(75)
大。

And that's what united all of these disparatecharacters.(76)
这就是所有这些不同角色的联合体。

JUDY WOODRUFF: It's striking that the firstword you used, Doris Kearns Goodwin, was humility,(77)
JUDY WOODRUFF:令人惊讶的是,你使用的第一个词,Doris Kearns Goodwin,谦虚,

because we don't think of that necessarilywhen we think about our great leaders, our(78)
因为当我们思考我们伟大的领导者时,我们并没有想到这一点

presidents, do we?(79)
总统,我们呢?

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: And I think it's becausewe think of humility sometimes as humbleness,(80)
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:我认为这是因为我们有时认为谦卑是谦卑,

and that's really not what it means.(81)
这真的不是它的意思。

It means an awareness of your limitations,so that you can learn from them.(82)
这意味着了解您的局限性,以便您可以从中学习。

Teddy Roosevelt had a swelled head when hewas in the state legislature, and he was just(83)
泰迪罗斯福在州立法机关当时头部肿胀,他只是

blistering and running around and saying terriblethings about his opponents.(84)
闷闷不乐地跑来跑去,对他的对手说些可怕的话。

And he was getting nowhere.(85)
他无处可去。

He couldn't get anything through the -- throughthe legislature.(86)
通过立法机关他无法得到任何东西。

So he finally said, I learned that I had tocollaborate and compromise.(87)
所以他最后说,我了解到我必须合作并妥协。

That's the humility of learning from yourerrors.(88)
这是从你的错误中学习的谦虚。

JUDY WOODRUFF: In a way, this is a psychologicalstudy, isn't it?(89)
JUDY WOODRUFF:在某种程度上,这是一项心理学研究,不是吗?

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: In some ways, it's themost personal of the books I have written,(90)
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:在某些方面,它是我写的最个人的书,

because I wanted to get inside the heads ofthese people that I had written their biographies,(91)
因为我想进入这些人的脑袋,我写过他们的传记,

their families, and those histories.(92)
他们的家人和那些历史。

I wanted to know, when did they first thinkof themselves as leaders?(93)
我想知道,他们什么时候开始认为自己是领导者?

When did other people recognize them?(94)
别人什么时候认出来的?

Where does ambition come from?(95)
野心从何而来?

All these questions are so interesting.(96)
所有这些问题都非常有趣。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And did you get answers toall of those?(97)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你有没有得到所有这些的答案?

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Not answers.(98)
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:没有答案。

I just would explore things, I think.(99)
我想,我只会探索一些事情。

I don't think there's an easy answer.(100)
我认为没有一个简单的答案。

But, for example, ambition came later to FDR.(101)
但是,例如,雄心壮志后来发生在罗斯福。

He seemed like an ordinary student at Harvard.(102)
他看起来像是哈佛大学的普通学生。

He seemed like an OK student at Columbia.(103)
他似乎是哥伦比亚大学的好学生。

He was a partner -- not even a partner, aclerk in a law firm.(104)
他是合伙人 - 甚至不是合伙人,律师事务所的职员。

And somebody comes to him and says, wouldyou like to run for the seat in Dutchess County?(105)
有人来找他说,你想参加Dutchess县的座位吗?

And he says yes.(106)
他说是的。

And he gets out on the campaign trail.(107)
然后他开始参加竞选活动。

He's barnstorming.(108)
他是个狂热的人。

He's an absolute natural.(109)
他是绝对自然的。

And he found what the philosopher WilliamJames says.(110)
他找到了哲学家威廉詹姆斯所说的话。

And I think it's true for all of us.(111)
我认为这对我们所有人都是如此。

Sometimes, you find that voice within youthat says, this is the real me, this is what(112)
有时,你会发现你内心的声音,这是真实的我,这就是我的意思

I want to be.(113)
我想成为。

They all found that at a certain point intheir life.(114)
他们都发现在他们生命的某个阶段。

Politics was their love.(115)
政治是他们的爱。

It was their vocation, as well as their avocation.(116)
这是他们的职业,以及他们的爱好。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So if you run into that collegestudent who confronted you a few years ago(117)
JUDY WOODRUFF:所以,如果你遇到几年前面对你的大学生

and he or she says, all right, can I do this,the answer is?(118)
他或她说,好吧,我可以这样做,答案是?

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: The answer is, you mayfail and you may fail again, but you have(119)
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:答案是,你可能会失败,你可能再次失败,但你有

to keep trying.(120)
继续努力。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Doris Kearns Goodwin, the bookis "Leadership in Turbulent Times."(121)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Doris Kearns Goodwin,这本书是“动荡时代的领导力”。

Thank you.(122)
谢谢。

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: You are most welcome.(123)
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:非常欢迎你。


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