Amy Walter and Tamara Keith on Trump’s Ukraine call defense, Sanders’ heart health
2019-10-07 00:00:00


WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And that brings us to PoliticsMonday.(1)
威廉·布朗汉姆(WILLIAM BRANGHAM):那把我们带到了星期一的政治。

I'm here with Amy Walter of The Cook PoliticalReport and host of public radio's "Politics(2)
我在这里与《库克政治报告》的艾米·沃尔特(Amy Walter)在一起,并主持了公共广播电台的“政治

With Amy Walter."(3)
和艾米·沃尔特在一起。”

And Tamara Keith of NPR, she co-hosts the"NPR Politics Podcast."(4)
她与NPR的Tamara Keith共同主持了“ NPR政治播客”。

Welcome, you two podcasters.(5)
欢迎您,两位播客。

(LAUGHTER)
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Let's talk about impeachment.(6)
威廉·布朗汉姆:让我们谈谈弹each。

Amy, the president, when this whole thingfirst broke, said there was no quid pro quo.(7)
总统艾米(Amy)在这件事刚破门之时就表示,没有交换条件。

Then these texts come out, now a second whistle-blowerhas come forward, saying it looks quite clear(8)
然后这些文本出来了,现在第二个举报者挺身而出,说看起来很清楚

that there was a quid pro quo.(9)
那是一种交换条件。

But it seems that the president's defenseof this whole call and this interaction with(10)
但似乎总统为整个电话会议以及与

the Ukrainians hasn't changed very much.(11)
乌克兰人并没有太大改变。

What is he trying to do here?(12)
他想在这里做什么?

AMY WALTER, The Cook Political Report: Andhis defenders, at least the few of them that(13)
艾米·沃尔特(AMY WALTER),《库克政治报告》:还有他的捍卫者,至少其中一些

are going out on television defending thepresident, they're not talking about what(14)
在电视上捍卫总统,他们不是在谈论什么

the president actually did or his intentions,whether it was with Ukraine or asking the(15)
总统实际上是这样做还是他的意图,无论是在乌克兰还是在问

Chinese to investigate.(16)
中国人来调查。

(CROSSTALK)
AMY WALTER: Right.(17)
艾米·沃尔特:对。

They're making the case that this is -- weshould be looking into corruption of the Bidens,(18)
他们认为这是-我们应该调查拜登一家的腐败情况,

we should be looking at the 2016 campaign.(19)
我们应该看一下2016年的广告系列。

It's muddying the waters as much possiblein order to get, I think, folks who are not(20)
我想,这尽可能地使水变得浑浊,

truly partisan or people who are just sortof paying attention to this whole affair to(21)
真正的党派人士或只是关注整个事件的人

say, ugh, I guess the whole thing is corrupt,that's just politicians, Biden over here doing(22)
说,嗯,我想整个事情都是腐败的,那只是政客,拜登在这里

his thing, Trump's doing his thing, and thencheck out, instead of focusing exclusively(23)
他的事,特朗普在做他的事,然后退房,而不是专心致志

on what the current sitting president of theUnited States is doing.(24)
关于现任美国现任总统的所作所为。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Tam, is that your sense,that -- one, that that's what they're doing?(25)
WILLIAM BRANGHAM:Tam,您的意思是-他们正在做什么?

And, two, is that kind of thing going to work?(26)
第二,这种事情会起作用吗?

TAMARA KEITH, National Public Radio: Well,the president keeps repeating the same thing.(27)
国家公共广播电台塔玛拉·基思(TAMARA KEITH):嗯,总统一直重复着同样的话。

It was a perfect call.(28)
这是一个完美的电话。

There was no pressure.(29)
没有压力。

He keeps repeating it, as if, if he couldjust repeat it enough times, it would make(30)
他不断重复,好像,如果他可以重复多次,它将使

it absolutely true.(31)
这是绝对正确的。

But the language that is in that call haseven many Republicans saying, that was improper.(32)
但是,这种呼声中甚至有许多共和党人说这是不恰当的。

Now, his defenders will say, that was improper,but not impeachable.(33)
现在,他的辩护者会说,这是不适当的,但并非不可弹each的。

And that is the big difference there.(34)
那是最大的区别。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right.(35)
威廉·布朗汉姆:对。

TAMARA KEITH: But the president seems to bevery much staying on message.(36)
塔玛拉·基思(TAMARA KEITH):但总统似乎非常在意。

Also, though, he's intensified his rhetoric.(37)
而且,尽管如此,他的言辞更加强烈。

He's using increasingly extreme language,words like coup and treason.(38)
他使用越来越极端的语言,例如政变和叛国罪。

He is now calling the media the corrupt media.(39)
他现在称媒体为腐败媒体。

He -- and he's been pretty transparent aboutit.(40)
他-他对此一直很透明。

He says, calling you fake news wasn't toughenough.(41)
他说,称您为假新闻还不够艰难。

I needed something stronger.(42)
我需要更强大的东西。

And at NPR, we have sort of charted this,and his use of this language is increasing.(43)
在NPR,我们已经对此进行了规划,并且他对这种语言的使用正在增加。

The number of tweets is increasing.(44)
推文的数量正在增加。

The president is lashing out as this intensifiesaround him.(45)
随着这种情况加剧,总统正在大肆抨击。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Amy, do think that thisdoes any damage to Biden's campaign?(46)
威廉·布朗汉姆:艾米,您认为这对拜登的竞选活动有何损害?

I mean, we -- it seems now that there is reallyno evidence that Biden tried to get this Ukrainian(47)
我的意思是,我们-似乎现在没有证据表明拜登曾试图让这个乌克兰人

prosecutor out to protect his son.(48)
检察官出去保护儿子。

But there still is the appearance that, ifyou're the point man on Ukraine for the Obama(49)
但是,看起来仍然存在着,如果你是乌克兰总统奥巴马的关键人物

administration, it is a little dodgy to haveyour son working at this gas company that(50)
行政部门,让您的儿子在这家天然气公司工作有点麻烦

had been investigated.(51)
已被调查。

In the end, does this hurt Biden?(52)
最后,这会伤害拜登吗?

AMY WALTER: Well, that's been a lot of thechatter over the weekend, right, that Biden(53)
艾米·沃尔特:嗯,这是整个周末的闲聊,对,拜登

has not done enough to sort of push back onthis story.(54)
还没有做足够的事情来反驳这个故事。

For somebody who's putting the whole onusof his campaign on, I'm the electable candidate,(55)
对于那些将竞选活动的全部责任都推到顶上的人,我是可选举的候选人,

I'm the guy that can, as he says, beat Trumplike a drum, he has not been vocally explaining(56)
正如他所说,我就是可以像鼓一样击败特朗普的人,他并没有在口头上解释

this and going after Donald Trump, pushingback on these claims that either he or his(57)
这并追随唐纳德·特朗普,推翻这些声称他或他的

son did something wrong.(58)
儿子做错了什么。

He's put an op-ed out.(59)
他退出了行动。

He has made some -- in press gaggles, madesome remarks about this, but not...(60)
他在媒体上发表了一些评论-对此发表了一些评论,但没有...

(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But he has not been thepugilist Joe Biden that a lot of Democrats(61)
威廉·布朗汉姆(WILLIAM BRANGHAM):但是他并不是像激进主义者乔·拜登那样的许多民主党人

want him to be.(62)
希望他成为。

AMY WALTER: Correct, wanted to -- wanted tosee, theoretically.(63)
艾米·沃尔特(AMY WALTER):正确,想要-从理论上来说,想要看看。

We just don't know yet if it's making thatmuch of a difference.(64)
我们只是不知道它是否起到了很大的作用。

The reality, I think, is, what impeachmenthas done is sort of frozen the 2020 race in(65)
我认为现实是弹imp已经冻结了2020年的

place.(66)
地点。

In some ways, that is good for Joe Biden,because we were starting to see him slipping(67)
在某些方面,这对乔·拜登是有好处的,因为我们开始看到他滑倒

in the early states to Elizabeth Warren.(68)
在早期的州伊丽莎白沃伦。

She was starting to gain even in the nationalpolls.(69)
她甚至开始在全国民意测验中获胜。

So to sort of freeze that momentum of herswould be good.(70)
因此,冻结一下她的那种势头会很好。

It's also bad for those lower-tier candidatestrying to break through.(71)
对于那些试图突破的低层候选人来说也是不利的。

But it's also not clear if, because Joe Biden'sname is -- to your point, it's in the news(72)
但是也不清楚,因为乔·拜登的名字是-就您而言,它是否在新闻中

all the time with just the words Ukraine,son, appearance.(73)
一直只用乌克兰,儿子,外表这句话。

That might be able to get into the minds ofvoters, sort of stick there.(74)
那也许能够引起选民的注意,在那儿坚持不懈。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Tam, what is your senseabout whether this really does matter out(75)
WILLIAM BRANGHAM:Tam,您对这是否真的有什么感觉?

amongst voters?(76)
在选民中?

I mean, here in Washington, of course, everyoneis talking about it constantly.(77)
我的意思是,当然,在华盛顿,每个人都在不断谈论它。

But does it matter?(78)
但这有关系吗?

Does it actually move the lever in a way thatpeople say, I want to hear about this more(79)
它是否确实以人们所说的方式移动杠杆,我想更多地了解这一点

than I do about health care or climate orwhatever might be on their minds?(80)
比我在医疗保健或气候问题上做的事情要多得多?

TAMARA KEITH: Yes, in terms of voters decidingon which candidate they want to be the Democratic(81)
塔玛拉·基思(TAMARA KEITH):是的,就选民而言,他们决定要成为民主党候选人

nominee, impeachment is kind of a nonissue.(82)
被提名人,弹each是没有问题的。

It continues to be a nonissue, because allof the candidates agree, more or less.(83)
由于所有候选人或多或少都同意,因此这仍然不是问题。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And if you were for Trump,you're for Trump still.(84)
威廉·布朗汉姆(WILLIAM BRANGHAM):如果您是特朗普,那您还是特朗普。

And if you were for someone in the blue camp,you're for them too.(85)
而且,如果您是在蓝营中寻找某人的,那您也为他们。

AMY WALTER: Right.(86)
艾米·沃尔特:对。

TAMARA KEITH: Right.(87)
塔玛拉·基思:对。

We have amazing division in this country,which is just remarkable, so that President(88)
我们在这个国家有惊人的分裂,这是非常了不起的,所以总统

Trump can go out on the South Lawn of theWhite House and say, Ukraine, you should investigate(89)
特朗普可以走出白宫南草坪,说,乌克兰,你应该调查

Joe Biden, and, China, you should investigateBiden.(90)
乔·拜登(Joe Biden),以及中国,您应该调查拜登。

He can stand out there and say something thatmany people wouldn't want to be caught in(91)
他可以站在那里,说出很多人不想被抓住的话

private saying, and Republicans continue tostand behind him.(92)
私下话,共和党人继续站在他身后。

And, in part, that is team sports.(93)
而且,部分是团队运动。

That's because the Republican team -- he'son the Republican team, and he went out there(94)
那是因为共和党队-他在共和党队中,他在那里

and he said these things.(95)
他说了这些话。

So, OK, I guess this is OK now.(96)
好吧,我想现在可以了。

AMY WALTER: Yes, the group that I'm watchingare independent voters, who their approval(97)
艾米·沃尔特(AMY WALTER):是的,我正在看的小组是独立选民,他们的批准

ratings of Donald Trump are very low.(98)
唐纳德·特朗普的收视率非常低。

A little over 50 percent disapprove of thejob he's doing as president, but only about(99)
略多于50%的人反对他担任总裁一职,但仅

40 percent say they want him to be impeached.(100)
40%的人说他们希望对他进行弹imp。

So there's a gap between those folks who say,I really don't like -- either I don't like(101)
所以说我真的不喜欢-要么我不喜欢

him or I don't like the way he behaves, Idon't like how he's serving as president.(102)
他或我不喜欢他的举止,我不喜欢他担任总统的方式。

That doesn't mean that I want to see him impeached.(103)
那并不意味着我想看到他被弹imp。

Where those folks go, to me, are the peopleto really watch that would turn the tide one(104)
这些人去的地方对我来说是真正值得关注的人

way or the other.(105)
方式还是其他。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right.(106)
威廉·布朗汉姆:对。

Tam, let's talk about the -- about what happenedwith Bernie Sanders last week.(107)
谭,让我们谈谈上周伯尼·桑德斯发生的事情。

He has -- originally, we're told he has chestdiscomfort.(108)
他有-最初,我们被告知他有胸部不适。

He goes to the hospital.(109)
他去医院了。

He puts two stents in.(110)
他放入了两个支架。

And then, a few days later, it turns out theysay, well, he actually did have a heart attack.(111)
然后,几天后,事实证明他们说,好吧,他的确患有心脏病。

Does that matter, either the timing of howthey rolled out this news or the simple cardiac(112)
这很重要吗,无论是他们发布此新闻的时机还是简单的心脏

event itself?(113)
事件本身?

TAMARA KEITH: So there's been a lot of criticismof the way they handled it.(114)
塔玛拉·基思(TAMARA KEITH):因此,人们对他们的处理方式提出了很多批评。

The Sanders campaign has clearly been verydefensive about that criticism, and they have(115)
桑德斯(Sanders)竞选活动显然对这种批评持防御态度,他们已经

been coming back and saying, no, we were verytransparent.(116)
回头说,不,我们非常透明。

We said he had stents put in.(117)
我们说他放了支架。

We put Jane out, his wife.(118)
我们把简放了出去,他的妻子。

She talked.(119)
她说话了。

And then, once he was released, they say,well, we said what it was.(120)
然后,一旦他被释放,他们说,很好,我们说的是事实。

That's three days.(121)
那是三天。

That is a long time to not know that the leadingfund-raiser in the Democratic field had a(122)
很长时间以来,我们还不知道民主党领域的主要筹款活动有

heart attack.(123)
心脏病发作。

And there is a big difference sort of emotionallyand in the way people feel between, had two(124)
在情感上和人们的感受上,两者之间有很大的不同

stents put in and had a heart attack.(125)
放入支架并引起心脏病。

It's a big psychological difference, evenif it's the same thing.(126)
即使是同一回事,这也是很大的心理差异。

AMY WALTER: Yes.(127)
艾米·沃尔特:是的。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right.(128)
威廉·布朗汉姆:对。

Do you have any sense of how this impactshis candidacy?(129)
您对此有何影响?

AMY WALTER: Well, I think his bigger challengeright now, beyond this, which is obviously(130)
艾米·沃尔特:好吧,我认为他目前面临的更大挑战,除此之外,这显然是

a health challenge, but his biggest politicalchallenge, her name is Elizabeth Warren.(131)
健康挑战,但他最大的政治挑战是伊丽莎白·沃伦(Elizabeth Warren)。

And she has been really biting into his twomain core support centers that he had in 2016,(132)
她真的很喜欢他在2016年设立的两个主要核心支持中心,

liberal voters, especially white liberal voters.(133)
自由派选民,特别是白人自由派选民。

And until she can -- until he can find a wayto get those voters back, which I don't think(134)
直到她能够-直到他找到让选民重返社会的方法为止,我都不认为

they're going to, that is a bigger challengefor him going forward.(135)
他们将要面对的挑战,对他来说是一个更大的挑战。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Amy Walter, Tamara Keith,thank you both so much.(136)
威廉·布朗汉姆:艾米·沃尔特,塔玛拉·基思,非常感谢你们。

TAMARA KEITH: You're welcome.(137)
塔玛拉·基思:不客气。

AMY WALTER: You're welcome.(138)
艾米·沃尔特:不客气。


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