Shields and Brooks on Trump-Pelosi feud, 2020 Democrats
2019-05-24 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: And now we turn to the analysisof Shields and Brooks.(1)
JUDY WOODRUFF:现在我们转向对Shields和Brooks的分析。

That's syndicated columnist Mark Shields andNew York Times columnist David Brooks.(2)
这是辛迪加专栏作家马克·希尔兹和“纽约时报”专栏作家大卫·布鲁克斯。

Hello to both of you.(3)
大家好。

So, we are trying to work our way througha conversation with each one of these candidates.(4)
因此,我们正在努力通过与这些候选人中的每一个进行对话。

Mark, there are now, as we said, 23 of them.(5)
马克,正如我们所说,现在有23个。

We talked to Eric Swalwell tonight, KirstenGillibrand last night.(6)
昨晚我们和Eric Swalwell谈了Kirsten Gillibrand。

I'm not going to say they are one-issue candidates,but they are -- in his case, you heard him(7)
我不会说他们是一个问题的候选人,但他们是 - 在他的情况下,你听到了他

talk about gun control, Kirsten Gillibrandemphasizing women's issues.(8)
谈论枪支管制,Kirsten Gillibrand强调女性的问题。

What are you hearing from them?(9)
你从他们那里听到了什么?

Is it smart for them to seize on one issueor not?(10)
他们是否聪明地抓住一个问题?

MARK SHIELDS: Well, we will find out whetherit is.(11)
MARK SHIELDS:嗯,我们会发现它是不是。

It just strikes me that abortion, as an issue,has been...(12)
我觉得堕胎问题一直是......

JUDY WOODRUFF: What she's talking about.(13)
JUDY WOODRUFF:她在说什么。

MARK SHIELDS: That's where Kirsten Gillibrandis probably most prominently identified -- is(14)
MARK SHIELDS:这就是Kirsten Gillibrand可能最突出的地方 - 是

an issue where those who seek serious andlarge change find themselves on the political(15)
那些寻求认真和大变革的人发现自己处于政治上的问题

defensive.(16)
防守。

And I think it's fair to say that it's hardto imagine anybody running a winning national(17)
而且我认为很难想象有人会赢得全国冠军

campaign on enlarging and making statutoryabortion legal in all circumstances or, for(18)
在所有情况下,扩大和使法定堕胎合法化的运动,或为

that matter, a Democratic Party which is essentiallyunwelcoming to those people who are -- have(19)
那个问题,一个民主党,基本上不受那些人的欢迎

reservations or are pro-life, but agree onevery other issue.(20)
保留或支持生活,但同意其他所有问题。

Essentially, we had Bob Casey in his fifthterm from Pennsylvania, the United States(21)
基本上,我们在美国宾夕法尼亚州的第五个任期内有Bob Casey

senator, wouldn't be welcome and not receiveparty backing, basically.(22)
参议员,基本上不受欢迎,也不受派对支持。

JUDY WOODRUFF: What is coming through to you?(23)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你有什么看法?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes.(24)
大卫布鲁克斯:是的。

When I look at these candidates, I'm firststruck by how the self-esteem movement was(25)
当我看到这些候选人时,我首先对自尊运动的表现感到震惊

obviously very effective.(26)
显然非常有效。

(LAUGHTER)
DAVID BROOKS: Because, when I look at thepresidency -- I have interviewed a lot of(27)
大卫布鲁克斯:因为,当我看到总统职位时 - 我已经采访过很多人

presidents since Reagan, really.(28)
里根以来的总统,真的。

And the one thing I come away with after everysingle interview was, I could never do that(29)
每次采访后我都会遇到的一件事是,我永远不会那样做

job.(30)
工作。

Like, it's a really hard job.(31)
就像,这是一项非常艰苦的工作。

And Eisenhower -- if I were Eisenhower, Iwould think, yes, I could do that.(32)
艾森豪威尔 - 如果我是艾森豪威尔,我会想,是的,我能做到。

I have run a war.(33)
我发动了一场战争。

Franklin Roosevelt was governor of New York.(34)
富兰克林罗斯福是纽约州州长。

Ronald Reagan was governor of California.(35)
罗纳德里根是加州州长。

George H.W. Bush had served in every positionalmost imaginable.(36)
乔治HW布什曾在几乎可以想象的每个职位上任职。

But why these people think they could be presidentof the United States is a little mystifying(37)
但为什么这些人认为他们可能成为美国总统有点神秘莫测

to me.(38)
对我来说。

But maybe they're right.(39)
但也许他们是对的。

The second thing I look for is a unique sellingproposition, like an actual route to the White(40)
我要寻找的第二件事是独特的销售主张,就像通往怀特的实际路线一样

House, why you're called to run, not -- whyit's not just about you getting a little more(41)
众议院,为什么你被叫去奔跑,不是 - 为什么不仅仅是你得到更多

famous, but why there's been some call onyou to run.(42)
很有名,但是为什么有人打电话给你跑。

And for Elizabeth Warren, I can see it.(43)
而对于伊丽莎白沃伦,我可以看到它。

She's got a set of policies and plans thatare sort of unique.(44)
她有一套独特的政策和计划。

It's a unique selling proposition.(45)
这是一个独特的销售主张。

Biden's got broad experience.(46)
拜登有丰富的经验。

Bernie Sanders has an outlook.(47)
伯尼桑德斯有一个前景。

With a lot of the candidates, a lot of the23, I don't quite see a unique selling proposition(48)
有很多候选人,很多23人,我不太看到一个独特的销售主张

or politically even a route to victory.(49)
或政治上甚至是通向胜利的途径。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Hmm.(50)
JUDY WOODRUFF:嗯。

Well...(51)
好...

MARK SHIELDS: Well, no, I don't argue withthat.(52)
MARK SHIELDS:嗯,不,我不反对。

I mean, I just say, the uneasy consensus onabortion in this country seems to me be in(53)
我的意思是,我只是说,在这个国家,关于堕胎的不一致的共识似乎在我身上

favor of the status quo, which is rape, incestand the life of the mother.(54)
支持现状,即强奸,乱伦和母亲的生命。

And that -- to me, if you start to changethat, which I think Republicans are finding(55)
对我而言,如果你开始改变这一点,我认为共和党人正在寻找

right now, when you have got the Republicannational chair disavowing it, and the Republican(56)
现在,当你让共和党国家主席否认它,以及共和党人

Senate majority leader disavowing the latestchange, the most zealous changes that the(57)
参议院多数党领袖否认了最新的变革,最热心的变化就是

Republicans are making, I think it tells yousomething about the politics of that issue.(58)
共和党人正在制作,我想它会告诉你一些关于这个问题的政治问题。

DAVID BROOKS: It's weird that 50 percent ofthe country is sort of in the middle on abortion.(59)
大卫布鲁克斯:奇怪的是,这个国家有50%的人在堕胎方面处于中间位置。

MARK SHIELDS: Yes.(60)
MARK SHIELDS:是的。

DAVID BROOKS: And Gillibrand says no Democraticcandidate should get support if they're in(61)
大卫布鲁克斯:吉利布兰德说,如果民主党候选人进入,他们不应该获得支持

the 50 percent, which is like a guaranteeof permanent minority.(62)
50%,这就像永久少数民族的保证。

JUDY WOODRUFF: All right, well, let's talkabout something that's consumed us for the(63)
JUDY WOODRUFF:好吧,好吧,让我们谈谈为我们消耗的东西

last couple of days.(64)
最近几天。

And that is what was a fight, a battle betweenthe president and Democrats in the Congress(65)
这就是一场战斗,这是总统与民主党在国会中的一场战斗

over subpoenas and documents and so forththat has turned into this very personal feud,(66)
传票和文件等已经变成了这种非常个人的不和,

Mark, between Speaker Pelosi and PresidentTrump.(67)
马克,佩洛西议长和特朗普总统之间。

And here is just a little bit of what thetwo of them have been saying about each other(68)
这里只是他们两个人对彼此说的一点点

over the last two days.(69)
在过去的两天里。

MARK SHIELDS: OK.(70)
MARK SHIELDS:好的。

REP.(71)
REP。

NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): We believe that the presidentof the United States is engaged in a cover-up.(72)
NANCY PELOSI(D-CA):我们认为美国总统正在进行掩盖。

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States:I don't do cover-ups.(73)
DONALD TRUMP,美国总统:我不做掩饰。

I'm the most transparent president probablyin the history of this country.(74)
我是这个国家历史上最透明的总统。

So, get these phony investigations over with.(75)
因此,请进行这些虚假调查。

REP.(76)
REP。

NANCY PELOSI: I pray for the president ofthe United States.(77)
南希·佩洛西:我为美国总统祈祷。

I wish that his family or his administrationor his staff would have an intervention for(78)
我希望他的家人或他的政府或他的工作人员能够进行干预

the good of the country.(79)
这个国家的好处。

The White House is just crying out for impeachment.(80)
白宫只是迫不及待地弹劾。

That's why he flipped yesterday.(81)
这就是他昨天翻身的原因。

DONALD TRUMP: I'm an extremely stable genius.(82)
DONALD TRUMP:我是一个非常稳定的天才。

She's a mess.(83)
她很乱。

Look, let's face it.(84)
看,让我们面对现实吧。

Crazy Nancy, I will tell you what, I havebeen watching her.(85)
疯狂的南希,我会告诉你什么,我一直在看着她。

And I have been watching her for a long periodof time.(86)
而且我一直在看她很长一段时间。

She's not the same person.(87)
她不是同一个人。

She's lost it.(88)
她失去了它。

I think Nancy Pelosi is not helping this country.(89)
我认为南希佩洛西没有帮助这个国家。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, Mark, it's gotten verypersonal.(90)
JUDY WOODRUFF:那么,Mark,它非常个人化。

MARK SHIELDS: It has gotten very personal,particularly on the president's part.(91)
MARK SHIELDS:它非常个人化,特别是在总统身上。

And it just struck me, when Nancy Pelosi usedthe term intervention, that's a serious -- that(92)
当南希佩洛西使用干预一词时,这让我印象深刻,这是一个严肃的问题

is a -- that's an attempt, a collective attempt,a cooperative attempt, a collaborative attempt(93)
是 - 这是一次尝试,一次集体尝试,一次合作尝试,一次合作尝试

on the part of family and friends to intercedeand to present to a person they think is suffering(94)
在家人和朋友方面进行调解并向他们认为正在遭受痛苦的人展示

from an addiction or some sort of conditionthat that condition is out of control, and(95)
从成瘾或某种条件,该条件失控,和

with the idea of seeking remedy and seekingrepair.(96)
寻求补救和寻求修复的想法。

And I don't think she used the term lightly.(97)
我不认为她轻易使用这个词。

And I would add to that, when you get GeneralJames Mattis, who has been totally silent...(98)
当你得到詹姆斯·马蒂斯将军时,我会更加沉默......

JUDY WOODRUFF: Former defense secretary.(99)
朱迪伍德夫:前国防部长。

MARK SHIELDS: Former defense secretary.(100)
MARK SHIELDS:前国防部长。

He left, and he now is cautioning this presidenton Iran.(101)
他离开了,他现在在告诉伊朗这位总统。

He is cautioning him, the United States, onthe use of military power and arguing that(102)
他正在警告他,美国,他在使用军事力量并争论这一点

diplomacy is important.(103)
外交很重要。

When you get the former secretary of defense,whom the president upbraided and insulted,(104)
当你得到总统谴责和侮辱的前国防部长时,

Rex Tillerson, going to the Congress, andreally raising serious questions about the(105)
雷克斯·蒂勒森(Rex Tillerson)去参加国会,并且真的提出了严重的问题

president's...(106)
总统的...

JUDY WOODRUFF: He testified this week.(107)
JUDY WOODRUFF:他本周作证。

MARK SHIELDS: Testified that the presidentwas unprepared, ill-prepared for the summit(108)
MARK SHIELDS:作证说总统没有做好准备,没有为峰会做好准备

in Hamburg with Secretary -- with Mr. Putin,and left the United States at a disadvantage,(109)
在汉堡与秘书 - 普京先生,并使美国处于不利地位,

I think that this a larger message here thanjust political back and forth.(110)
我认为这是一个更大的信息,而不仅仅是政治来回。

I think there's a serious concern about thispresident and this presidency.(111)
我认为这位总统和这位总统都非常担心。

And, Judy, the first rule I learned coveringAmerican president politics is, beware of(112)
而且,朱迪,我学到的关于美国总统政治的第一条规则是,要小心

the presidential candidate who does not havefriends of his or her own age who can tell(113)
总统候选人谁没有他或她自己年龄的朋友可以告诉

him when he's wrong and to go to hell.(114)
他错了,下地狱。

And, right now, there are no grownups leftin the White House.(115)
而且,现在,白宫还没有成年人。

Donald Trump has Mr. Kushner and Mr. Milleras his two confidants.(116)
唐纳德特朗普有库什纳先生和米勒先生作为他的两个知己。

JUDY WOODRUFF: How serious do you see this?(117)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你觉得这有多严重?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I mean, it irks me thatthey're both questioning each other's mental(118)
大卫布鲁克斯:是的,我的意思是,让我感到烦恼的是,他们都在质疑彼此的心理

competence, basically.(119)
能力,基本上。

You can question policies.(120)
您可以质疑政策。

You can question a lot of things, but to saysomeone is basically in mental decline, it(121)
你可以质疑很多事情,但是说某人基本上处于精神衰退状态

just -- it just strikes me as a little toopersonal.(122)
只是 - 它让我觉得有点太个人化了。

Donald Trump was -- is in the Hall of Fameof the World Wrestling Federation.(123)
唐纳德特朗普是 - 在世界摔跤联合会的名人堂。

And he's taking it to the World WrestlingFederation levels of confrontation.(124)
他正在把它带到世界摔跤联合会的对抗层面。

And do I think he knows what he's doing?(125)
我认为他知道他在做什么吗?

Well, at some level, I do think he does.(126)
嗯,在某种程度上,我确实认为他做到了。

The question is, in that stage play, whenhe confronted all the Democrats, was it him(127)
问题是,在那个舞台剧中,当他面对所有民主党人时,是他

going crazy because he's so self-obsessed?(128)
发疯了,因为他太自以为是了?

Yes.(129)
是。

But was -- is there also some craftiness toit?(130)
但是 - 它还有一些狡猾吗?

Yes.(131)
是。

I think it's politically the right move forhim.(132)
我认为这在政治上对他来说是正确的举动。

If you look around the world, what's risingis hostility to elites?(133)
如果你环顾世界,对精英们的敌意是什么?

Modi gets elected.(134)
莫迪当选。

Australia, Brexit, Netanyahu, it's just allover the world.(135)
澳大利亚,英国退欧,内塔尼亚胡,它遍布全球。

And you can win, you can be forgiven a lotof sins, if you oppose coastal elites in our(136)
你可以获胜,如果你反对我们的沿海精英,你可以原谅很多罪过

country, urban elites.(137)
国家,城市精英。

And he's riding that train.(138)
而他正乘坐那列火车。

And Nancy Pelosi is a good foil for that.(139)
南希佩洛西是一个很好的陪衬。

And, politically, I do think there's some-- it's not crazy what he's doing.(140)
而且,在政治上,我确实认为有一些 - 他正在做的事并不疯狂。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well...(141)
JUDY WOODRUFF:嗯......

MARK SHIELDS: Can I just disagree with David,OK?(142)
MARK SHIELDS:我可以不同意David,好吗?

And that's this?(143)
就是这个?

I don't think it is shrewd.(144)
我不认为它是精明的。

I mean, remember what they were discussing.(145)
我的意思是,记住他们在讨论什么。

JUDY WOODRUFF: I'm sorry, you don't thinkit's...(146)
JUDY WOODRUFF:对不起,你不认为这是......

MARK SHIELDS: I don't think it is shrewd.(147)
MARK SHIELDS:我不认为它是精明的。

I don't think it's clever.(148)
我不认为这很聪明。

What they were discussing is the infrastructureof the United States.(149)
他们在讨论的是美国的基础设施。

If there's one issue on which there is agreementthat the country that was number one on all(150)
如果存在一个问题,那就是该国一致同意的国家

infrastructure, roads, highways, airports,ports, rail just 15 years ago, and is now(151)
15年前的基础设施,道路,高速公路,机场,港口,铁路,现在

number nine, and we're falling apart -- wehave got an $836 billion back-load.(152)
排名第九,而且我们正在分崩离析 - 我们已经获得了8360亿美元的后备负荷。

We haven't raised the gasoline tax in 26 years.(153)
我们26年没有提高汽油税。

And there's something with the economy justmaybe needing a goose very well next year.(154)
而经济方面的问题可能就是明年需要一只鹅。

I mean, this begs to be done.(155)
我的意思是,这有待完成。

It's something that the country desperatelyneeds.(156)
这是该国迫切需要的东西。

And he walks away from it.(157)
他离开了它。

He walks away from it and just ignores it,when, in fact, he could have a political success(158)
他离开它并且忽略它,事实上,他可以取得政治上的成功

and a public success.(159)
并取得公众的成功。

DAVID BROOKS: I would say, first of all, thefact that he walked away from it shows he(160)
大卫布鲁克斯:我会说,首先,他离开它的事实表明他

cares about more himself than the country.(161)
关心自己比国家更多。

MARK SHIELDS: Yes.(162)
MARK SHIELDS:是的。

DAVID BROOKS: That, I agree with.(163)
大卫布鲁克斯:那,我同意。

MARK SHIELDS: OK.(164)
MARK SHIELDS:好的。

DAVID BROOKS: But I don't think it's wrongto think that voters are driven more by animosity(165)
大卫布鲁克斯:但我认为选民更多地受敌意驱使是不对的

than by, what have you done for me?(166)
而且,你为我做了什么?

If you can whip up animosities in this climate,or at least among some voters, then you have(167)
如果你能在这种气候下,或者至少在一些选民中掀起敌意,那么你就拥有了

got a route to victory, rather than saying,oh, I did something really good for you, you(168)
有一条通往胜利的道路,而不是说,哦,我做了一件非常适合你的事,你

should be grateful, you should reward me.(169)
应该感激,你应该奖励我。

Those kind of soft and uplifting emotionsare a little alien right now from politics.(170)
那种柔和而令人振奋的情绪现在从政治上来说有点陌生。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, let me just say, speakingof whipping up animosities, I just want to(171)
JUDY WOODRUFF:嗯,我想说的是,谈到煽动敌意,我只想

show you just this, again, a short clip.(172)
再次向你展示一个短片。

This is something that the president tweeteda version of this.(173)
这是总统发推文的一个版本。

His personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, had spreadthis on Twitter and then pulled it back.(174)
他的私人律师鲁迪朱利安尼(Rudy Giuliani)已将其传播到推特上,然后将其撤回。

This is a doctored and then a real versionof Nancy Pelosi speaking this week.(175)
这是Nancy Pelosi本周发表的篡改版本,然后是真实版本。

I just want to show you a bit of it.(176)
我只是想告诉你一点。

REP.(177)
REP。

NANCY PELOSI: And then he had a press conferencein the Rose Garden with all this sort of visuals(178)
NANCY PELOSI:然后他在玫瑰园举行了新闻发布会,展示了所有这些视觉效果

that obviously were planned.(179)
这显然是有计划的。

And then he had a press conference in theRose Garden with all this sort of visuals(180)
然后他在玫瑰园举行了新闻发布会,展示了所有这些视觉效果

that obviously were planned.(181)
这显然是有计划的。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So -- and, I mean, we haveseen this happen in social media.(182)
JUDY WOODRUFF:所以 - 我的意思是,我们已经看到这种情况发生在社交媒体上。

It's what's going on right now.(183)
这就是现在正在发生的事情。

But to know that the president's lawyer -- thepresident was pushing another version of Pelosi.(184)
但要知道总统的律师 - 总统正在推动另一个版本的佩洛西。

They pulled together some clips where Pelosiwas speaking in a sort of halting way and(185)
他们把一些片段放在一起,佩洛西在那里以一种停顿的方式说话

had it on FOX Business Channel.(186)
在福克斯商业频道上有它。

I mean, what are we seeing here?(187)
我的意思是,我们在这里看到了什么?

MARK SHIELDS: We're seeing, Judy, the lackof any moral center or compass in a president(188)
MARK SHIELDS:我们看到朱迪,总统缺乏任何道德中心或指南针

and a presidency.(189)
和总统。

I mean, when -- they're going to ask -- thegrandchildren are going to ask, what did you(190)
我的意思是,当他们要问的时候 - 孙子们会问,你是什么人

stand for, grandpa, what did you do?(191)
代表,爷爷,你做了什么?

I mean, when Roosevelt brought a country thatwas on its knees and its back, back to its(192)
我的意思是,当罗斯福把一个跪在地上的国家带回来的时候

feet, when Ronald Reagan won the Cold War,I mean, when Lyndon Johnson brought civil(193)
当罗纳德·里根赢得冷战时,我的意思是,当林登·约翰逊带来文明时

rights to the country, this is what he's goingto say?(194)
对国家的权利,这是他要说的话?

I doctored up, I made my opponents look bad,I put out phony tapes on them?(195)
我篡改了,我让我的对手看起来很糟糕,我把伪造的录音带放在他们身上?

I mean, this is beyond -- this is an indignityto the office, and it's a disgrace, really,(196)
我的意思是,这已经超出了 - 这对办公室来说是一种侮辱,这是一种耻辱,真的,

to the country.(197)
为了祖国。

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I agree with that, butit's sort of the times.(198)
大卫布鲁克斯:是的,我同意这一点,但这有点像时代。

We're sort of the old legacy media.(199)
我们有点像旧的传统媒体。

The "NewsHour," The New York Times, The WashingtonPost, we're legacy media.(200)
“新闻时报”,“纽约时报”,“华盛顿邮报”,我们都是传统媒体。

But the one thing legacy media has is, wehave basic standards below which it's unimaginable(201)
但传统媒体的一个方面是,我们有基本标准,这是不可想象的

to sink, like making up stuff.(202)
下沉,就像化妆一样。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Absolutely.(203)
JUDY WOODRUFF:当然。

DAVID BROOKS: And if you do make an error,you correct it.(204)
大卫布鲁克斯:如果你确实犯了错误,你就更正了。

And so that's just the job we do.(205)
所以这就是我们的工作。

It's the normal thing, part of our world.(206)
这是正常的事情,是我们这个世界的一部分。

The Internet comes in, and there are somethings on the Internet that are great, that(207)
互联网进来了,互联网上有一些很棒的东西

live up to the standards that we're used toas professionals, and some things that are(208)
不辜负我们习以为常的标准,以及一些事物

not.(209)
不。

And you have got to make the distinction betweenthose above the line and those below the line.(210)
而且你必须区分线上方和下方线之间的区别。

But that distinction between above the lineand below the line seems to get washed away(211)
但是线条之上和线之下的区别似乎被冲走了

on the Internet.(212)
在网上。

And it doesn't help that the president doesn'tseem -- even seem to acknowledge the idea(213)
总统似乎并没有帮助 - 甚至似乎也承认这个想法

of the line.(214)
这条线。

JUDY WOODRUFF: It's the Internet.(215)
JUDY WOODRUFF:这是互联网。

It's social media.(216)
这是社交媒体。

It's also some work being done on cable -- oncable news.(217)
这也是有线电视新闻的一些工作。

MARK SHIELDS: That's right.(218)
MARK SHIELDS:没错。

JUDY WOODRUFF: I just want to quickly, finally,come back to what has apparently gotten under(219)
JUDY WOODRUFF:我只是想快点,最后,回到显然已经得到的东西

the president's skin, David.(220)
总统的皮肤,大卫。

And that is the Congress under Pelosi -- theHouse -- she's saying, we're not going to(221)
那就是佩洛西 - 众议院下的国会 - 她说,我们不会这样做

move directly to any sort of impeachment proceeding,but we are going to continue to gather facts.(222)
直接采取任何形式的弹劾程序,但我们将继续收集事实。

Are we seeing that train move inevitably downthe track?(223)
我们是否看到火车不可避免地沿着轨道移动?

It's the question I was asking CongressmanSwalwell.(224)
这是我问国会议员斯瓦尔威尔的问题。

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I think we are, actually.(225)
大卫布鲁克斯:是的,我认为我们是,实际上。

I think she's right to slow-walk it.(226)
我认为她走得慢走是对的。

But if you look at the shift at where Democraticvoters are, the Democratic voters in recent(227)
但是,如果你看一下民主党选民的转变,最近的民主选民

polls have shifted much more to, we need toimpeach.(228)
民意调查已转移到更多,我们需要弹劾。

That is certainly where the basis is.(229)
这当然是基础所在。

The Democratic candidates, the presidentialsout in the field are moving in that direction.(230)
民主党候选人,在外地的总统正朝着这个方向前进。

So I think we're probably going to move inthat direction.(231)
所以我认为我们可能会朝那个方向前进。

Again, I worry it gives Trump his only argument,that they're out to get me and they're wrong,(232)
再一次,我担心它给了特朗普他唯一的论点,他们出去找我,他们错了,

and it's hyperpartisan, my tribe, then theirtribe.(233)
它是超党派,我的部落,然后是他们的部落。

It's the argument he likes to have.(234)
这是他喜欢的论点。

And I do think he is sort of goading theminto it.(235)
我确实认为他有点煽动他们。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Do you think the House is -- canthe House stop what's going on right now?(236)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你认为众议院是否 - 众议院可以阻止现在正在发生的事情吗?

I mean, are we just inevitably moving in thedirection...(237)
我的意思是,我们是否不可避免地朝着这个方向前进......

MARK SHIELDS: I don't think -- I don't thinkinevitably.(238)
MARK SHIELDS:我不认为 - 我不认为是不可避免的。

I mean, I think -- I think those who weresure that we're inevitably moving, were sure(239)
我的意思是,我认为 - 我认为那些确信我们不可避免地会感动的人确实如此

that the Mueller report was going to do it,that Michael Avenatti, who has his own serious(240)
穆勒的报告将要做到这一点,迈克尔阿凡纳蒂,他有自己的认真

problems right now, was going to be the witnessthat brought everything down, that Michael(241)
现在的问题,将成为让一切都失望的证人,迈克尔

Cohen, God bless his soul, who's now in federaldetention -- correction, was going to do it.(242)
科恩,上帝保佑他的灵魂,谁现在被联邦拘留 - 纠正,将要去做。

So, I'm not sure the inevitability of thecase against President Trump.(243)
所以,我不确定案件对特朗普总统的必然性。

I will say this, that Nancy has been vindicated.(244)
我会这样说,南希已被证明是正确的。

Nancy Pelosi has been vindicated by two courtdecisions this week, that required Deutsche(245)
南希佩洛西本周已经通过两项法院判决得到证实,这要求德意志银行

Bank to turn over its financial records.(246)
银行将其财务记录上交。

JUDY WOODRUFF: That's right.(247)
JUDY WOODRUFF:没错。

MARK SHIELDS: And so maybe those who say thatthe courts were too slow may be wrong, I mean,(248)
MARK SHIELDS:所以也许那些说法院太慢的人可能是错的,我的意思是,

if the courts do act quickly.(249)
如果法院迅速采取行动。

And you have got New York state, which isgoing to make available the tax returns to(250)
你有纽约州,它将提供纳税申报表

the U.S. House.(251)
美国众议院。

So, there are -- on a number of fronts.(252)
因此,有许多方面。

If the president in fact stonewalls thesedecisions and refuses to do it, then I think(253)
如果总统实际上阻止了这些决定并且拒绝这样做,那么我认为

that he makes -- starts to make the case himselffor his own impeachment.(254)
他所做的 - 开始自己为自己的弹劾做出判决。

JUDY WOODRUFF: A lot of shoes are dropping,maybe more shoes.(255)
JUDY WOODRUFF:很多鞋子都在下降,也许更多鞋子。

MARK SHIELDS: Maybe as many as Imelda Marcos'shoes.(256)
MARK SHIELDS:也许和Imelda Marcos的鞋子一样多。

(LAUGHTER)
JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark Shields, David Brooks,thank you.(257)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Mark Shields,David Brooks,谢谢。


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